By Hume-anist
( For those who don't know, an individual by the name of U. Fraton Cordner has written a long rambling "proof" of, well, something or other, and it regularly crops up in various places on the internet. This response was written by Hume-anist and appeared on the Wasteland message forum in June 2000. - Adrian )
U. Fraton Cordner: Why bother harassing you with this lengthy letter?!?
Hume-anist: Because it gives you a cheap thrill?
U: First of all, this is only the tip of the tip of the iceberg of what could be said and the time will be soon at hand. You say it will never happen?!?
H: No, I say wake me up when it happens. I'm sick of religious nuts telling me"the time is at hand", and you know what? Every one of them has been WRONG so far. Why should I believe you will be any different?
U: People are too intelligent and sophisticated to fall for that?!? Just remember that Hitler came to power during a time of great crisis; both of national identity and socioeconomic stresses.
H: Oh my, here we go again... If you had read my posts to Abe Smith, you would know that we have thoroughly discredited the idea that natural events can be paralelled with supernatural. Hitler was a man, not a demon and/or angel (the difference is a little unclear sometimes!). I believe that he was an evil man, but the explanations for his rise lie in the real world, not in ancient fairy tales.
U: From my understanding of Bible truth, I see some earth shattering calamities on the horizon; economic, social, tribal (cultural or ethnic), religious and natural. Maybe all at the same time.
H: My goodness! It would be impossible to predict these without that there Bible, wouldn't it?
U: Desperate people don't ask or question the hand that is supposedly extended to help during a time of Extreme Crisis; especially, if that hand is backed by the most powerful supernatural being that God has ever created along with a few billion of his angelic friends. There will be no sitting on the fence either. Even though one may not totally agree with the philosophy and methods of the "Image to the Beast", by obeying its laws they will be placing themselves against God and for Lucifer.
H: So I'm given the choice between two alternative flaky theories, neither of which I believe in? Sounds good to me!
U: Don’t you find it surprising that a so called Christian Church fully embraces the theory of evolution and Darwin’s book "Origins"?!?
H: Not as surprising as the fact that there are people who deride 'Babylon' yet cling to its origin myth.
U: Max Planck once said that "A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." (Planck 33,34) Many are not aware that the theory has its basis in Babylon mysticism and Greek Philosophy. Many are also unaware that the Catholic Church is also steeped in pagan philosophies (Babylonian, Egyptian, Persian, Greek, Roman etc., etc.). Wherever She goes in the world She allows the people to incorporate their belief systems into Her’s. The Church’s beliefs, symbols and architecture are mostly pagan in their origin. For example, Peter’s Statue was originally to the Roman Deity Jupiter; only the name plate was replaced. Go to St. Peter’s Basilica (and several others worldwide) and you will find them covered in pagan symbols like the zodiac, solar wheels, gargoyles etc., etc. Mary worship is just a facade for the worship of Diana and other pagan female deities.
H: I am surprised that you regard what the conquistadors did to Meso-American religion as being "allowing people to incorporate their belief systems". Or the Spanish army at Naarden, for that matter. Be a little less selective in your reading of history. Some of what you say is true, but your conclusion is seriously whacko.
U: Let us take a look at just a few other beliefs that have its origin in paganism. Fixity of species is not a Biblical concept. The Bible doesn’t address the topic at length.
H: How convenient for you.... you can now claim any wrong idea is 'not a Biblical concept'. Argue the fixity of species one with a Creationist and see how far YOU get!
U: The Roman Church accepted the Aristotelean (Greek) philosophy of the "fixity of species" that many attribute to the Bible. Aristotle didn’t believe in special creation by the way. The concept of a flat earth was not widely held throughout ancient times but the Roman Church adopted it and its origin is also found in paganism. Darwin is not the originator of evolutionary concepts. The former theology major just put his spin on it; like McDonald’s popularization of the hamburger.
H: Maybe so; but Darwin still deserves credit for putting evoltuion's house in order and shaking it down into a viable theory. And whoever originated the idea, it's demonstrably right.
U: He most likely was influenced by his grandfather Erasmus who in turn borrowed from antiquity. This is a quote from his book Zoononia:
"In the great length of time since the earth began to exist, perhaps millions of years ago, would it be too bold to imagine that all warm blooded animals have arisen from one living filament?"(Wheeler 49)
The following are some quotes from philosophers who may have influenced Erasmus:
"Empedocles (490-430 B.C.) believed that originally the world contained creatures with every possible combination of limbs and other organs, since only parts of animals came into existence first. Hate for a time kept the parts separate, but love eventually allowed them to join at random. Modern species are those that survived after nature winnowed the odd assemblages out." (Wheeler 23)
The philosophy of Anaximander should have a familiar ring to it:
"The first animals were generated in the moisture, and were enclosed within spiny barks. As they grew older, they migrated onto the drier land; and, once their bark was split and shed, they survived for a short time in the new mode of existence. (Ibid. 22)
In another passage he says:
"Man to begin with was generated from living things of another kind, whereas others can hunt quickly for their own food, men alone require prolonged nursing. If he had been like that in the beginning, he would never have survived… Thus men were formed within these [fishlike creatures] and remained within them like embryos until they had reached maturity. Then at last the creatures burst open, and out of them came men and women who were already able to fend for themselves." (Ibid. 22)
Here is one even more ancient:
"It seems that the ancient Ninevites looked up into the sky one day as they heard the sound of some type of missile streaking towards the earth. The ever-descending object was a gigantic egg! It fell directly into the Euphrates River and down onto the river floor. It did not even crack. The legend says that after the egg had softly settled down on the bottom of the river a large school of fish came to the egg and rolled it up onto the shore away from the water…" (Strongfellow 33)
This egg eventually hatched, and the Moon Goddess Ishtar emerged. Ishtar is where we get the name Easter which involves eggs, rabbits etc. The concept of a cosmic egg or proto atom is pagan. The Big Bang Theory (cosmic egg revisited) was invented by a "Belgian Priest, George Lemaitre, improved upon by an avowed atheist, George Gamou and is now all but universally accepted by those who hold advanced degrees in astronomy and the physical sciences, despite its obvious absurdity."(Cherry 44) It appears that the universe had its origins from a singular cause; but it was not from an explosion as we know them to be. The word "explosion" is too limited in its context and scope to adequately express the awesomeness of that singular event. Explosive aftermaths are not finely tuned to 1 part in 1045. Our universe began as a single word which was expressed in infinite power at rates that boggle the imagination. The whole process was and continues to be, orchestrated with finely tuned precision. Explosions as we know them do not create, they destroy.
H: How you go from a falling egg to the Big Bang theory is beyond me. The
Big Bang - whatever else it might have produced - did
not give rise to the mythological Ishtar. You stand self-condemned as a purveyor
of nonsense.
U: The Bible says:
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth...For he spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast (Psalms 33:6,9 K.J.V.).
H: Please explain, using recent images from the Hubble space telescope, just how fast the heavens stand.
U: Other versions of these philosophies as well as philosophies from other pagan cultures were vying for the mastery during the Dark Ages. Eventually the Greek philosophy supported by the church lost out to the more evolutionary philosophies made popular by Charles Darwin; but scientists believe that by supporting evolution they are rejecting supposedly Biblical concepts. They are wrong. Unfortunately some of these pagan philosophies still linger on; some of their priests are now scientists (or visa versa).
H: Now you have me confused. Or is it you? Yes, it's you.
U: Should we be surprised that the current Pope has embraced evolution?!? Roman Catholicism collects pagan philosophies like some girls collect barbies. Now its set is almost complete. It is all too easy to deceive people. It doesn’t matter what is your education. How many people really understand the historical development of evolution or of the Papacy for that matter? You won’t find it in laboratory test tubes. You can’t deduce it by experimental analysis. Dust off your history books!! Go to Europe!!! The conscious mind can just as easily believe a lie as the truth; and we have all believed lies at one time or another.
H: My history books gather no dust, and I'm already in Europe. Laughing at you. You can't deduce ANYTHING my experimental example, you can only INDUCE. Get a grip on basic epistemology before stepping into the ring...
U: Life, emotions, volition, spirituality can only be passed on or bequeathed
by those who possess those attributes. Elements, compounds and simple amino
acids, do not inherently possess those qualities. On special occasions like
Christmas (its origins are pagan by the way) we give what we already acquired
by buying, making, inheriting or maybe even stealing. No entity, animate or
inanimate, can give what it doesn’t inherently possess. You can’t
get blood out of a stone, though some may try(Canada Revenue). I would love
to give some family members and friends lots of different gifts. Some I possess
and some I do not. Corpses do not conceive and slabs of meat do not give rise
to life let alone flies or maggots. Life does not originate from what is dead.
That is true scientific reasoning.
True science and the Bible are in agreement.
H: Bzzt! Circular reasoning alert! So presumably any science which refutes the Bible isn't 'true' by definition? Gather round, fellow heathens, and let's play "Smack the nominalist".
U: What do we observe about our vast and expanding universe? The first cause of perpetual motion must be omnipotent.
H: Goodness me, your grasp of perpetual motion is as sure as your grasp of ovine thermodynamics. What can I say?
U: The first cause of limitless variety must be omniscient. The first cause of this multidimensional space time continuum must be omnipresent. The first cause of love must be loving. The first cause of will must be volitional. The first cause of creative abilities must be Creator. The first cause of harmony is musical. The first cause of religious values must be spiritual. The first cause of law must be moral in nature. The first cause of social values must be Personal. The first cause of feeling must be emotional.
H: SMACK THE NOMINALIST! SMACK THE NOMINALIST!!
U: The first cause is the God revealed to us in the Bible. He is the same one who took on humanity and died for us and His name is Jesus Christ. He is the one who spoke the law from Mt. Sinai in Arabia. The law was written on two tablets; The first four commandments on one side the other six hidden on the backside. Just like the universe which has ten dimensions; four visible dimensions with the other six invisibly curled beside each dimensional unit.
H: Mt Sinai is in Egypt. And it was Moses who did the law business. And first cause arguments will inevitably blow your whole tottering theology to smithereens, so go carefully.
U: The Roman Church will be your church!!! She is the "Mother of All Harlots". She accepts all and will rule all except one. That means you and your atheistic colleagues will be intimately involved in the final conflict and could be on the side of the enemy; the wrong side and the losing side.
H: Stop gibbering and take some valium. I am not a Roman Cathoplic, nor never will be.
U: If it weren’t for the preservation of the scriptures and the Protestant Reformation, we’d all still be in darkness. If it wasn’t for the printing of the Bible, all (including atheists) would be saying a few "Hail Marys" or would face torture, or be burned at the stake. By the way Stalin and Hitler’s regimes borrowed the science of torturing from the Papal textbook. If you go to Europe you can still go on tours of church basements where you’ll find all their favorite implements.
H: So the atheists who existed before protestantism don't count. Thanks for setting me straight there...
U: It wasn’t just Protestants, Muslims and Jews who suffered at the Vatican’s hands. Honest Catholics were also dispatched. For example, all Catholics (and Protestants) in the city of Albi were slaughtered because they refused to hand over their protestant neighbours to the Papal Armies. Don’t you find it surprising that the gentleman responsible for the mass printing (mechanical) of the Bible (the first book) was hunted down for years and finally was burned at the stake?!? I don’t have to tell you which religious institution was responsible. His name was William Tyndale by the way. They also burned any Bibles that they could find but it was too late. The people were too long in papal/pagan darkness. They hungered after the word and longed for the freedom to believe and worship as they saw fit. "Thy word is a light unto my feet and a light unto my path" (Ps 119:105). By the way Atheistic Russia also burned Bibles and executed Bible believers. You see, your history does have something in common with the papacy. Mark my words: Persecution of Bible believers will return on a global scale very soon. The Papal Belief system will make it so.
H: I have marked your words. 15% - please see me after class.
U: Jesus said, "...yea the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service" and Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another"(Jn 16:2 & Matt 24:9,10). The Papal reign of terror will return on a global scale but it won’t last for 1000 years; Thank God. When that time comes, will Atheists then Kiss the Pope’s Toe?!?
H: Oh yuk! No thanks.
U: Speaking of religion....
From the plethora of Atheistic Sites that I have had the pleasure of visiting, I have noticed that some equate religion with the belief in a higher or transcendent being. Religion is a set or system of beliefs...period. They may be held by one person or a group of persons. A religion may or may not be backed by supporting institution(s). All wars, conflicts, acts of violence, disagreements, arguments, etc., are the direct result of religious disputes. The First act of murder was a family dispute over religion. Conflicts between individuals and family members are religious conflicts. Every person has some set of beliefs, therefore everyone is religious. Beliefs may be verbalized but they don’t have to be; and this is not the only evidence of one’s beliefs. Jesus said "...by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt 7:16,20). Apple trees produce apples (if they are worth anything) because they are. People’s actions demonstrate what they believe. I just don’t believe people should be set upon for having different views.
H: So tell me, from my actions, what kind of person I am. If you accuse me of being aggressive, I will PUNCH YOUR SHAGGING LIGHTS OUT. You have been warned...
U: The Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc of Nations are recent examples of State Religion, or a Union between Church and State. Atheism was the religion of these countries and they systematically suppressed the freedom of all other rivals. Millions of Moslems, Christians, Jews and Atheists (Communists) perished in this religious conflict. The Fascist regimes of six decades ago were also State Religions and again millions of rivals perished. Secularism and Materialism are religions as well. There are many Christians who by their actions show themselves to be Materialists and Secularists. Its is difficult not to be materialistic these days.
H: Quite so. You can see that other religions are violent messes of nonsense. Now go look in a mirror...
U: What I also found intriguing was how many sites advocated a "Freedom from Religion" platform. I must say that I was saddened by this catchy phraseology. The only three ways (let me know if you come across others) to be free of ones own religion or set of beliefs are to:
1. Become a lower life form; i.e. animal, mineral, vegetable.
2. Become comatose.
3. Cease to exist commonly known as death.
H: You are conflating 'religion' and 'set of beliefs' in an unjustified way. Not every mindset is a religion.
U: The Bible teaches that death is a complete and total loss of consciousness. Belief in a vapour like soul body is Pagan, most particularly Greek. This is the goal of some far Eastern Religions...Nirvana...the great eternal nothingness; or eternal death which is what Lucifer is counting on us choosing.
So what these people are actually saying is that they want some kind of harm to come to themselves. This is not good. I am all for the separation of church and state and freedom of religion. I do appreciate the contributions that some atheists are making in these areas; but freedom from religion is Jones Town, Heaven Gates, the Solar Temple, etc. etc. It is going a little too far. The Bible speaks out against murder, including self murder.
H: Of course it isn't, you pillock. You stand self-condemned on a second charge of nonsense.
U: My church has been waiting, watching and teaching these same scriptural truths for more than150 yrs.
H: And in that time, how many of your prophecies have come true?
U: We’ve watched as the Pope’s office grew in prominence as people forget the awful history and track record of this blood thirsty power. We've watched as one by one the protestant groups have bowed to the papacy they once identified as the Anti- Christ. We watched as a fledgling country blossomed against all rivals into the ONLY Super power. If you are interested there is a book written by the most prolific female writer of all time that chronicles the last 1900 yrs since the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70) and on into the future. It was written over a hundred years ago. It is called "The Great Controversy" by E.G. White.
H: Yes, it's amazing how much more powerful the papacy is today than it was in the dark ages...
U: Everything is almost ready. Just a few more players to sign on. When the earth is reeling the rest will sign "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye", If they haven’t before then. They will have signed over their right to eternal life. Remember, the Imposter shows up before Christ returns. His dazzling appearance will be appealing to all religionist, agnostics, atheists, etc., etc. That includes those on the S.E.T.I. fan list. Yes, his coming will please and deceive those who are hooked on extraterrestrials and U.F.O.’s. Why not, he is the mastermind behind the alien hype in Hollywood, the scientific community and the paranormal community. He and his fallen friends are super intellects that have access to at least one more dimension. We are physically powerless against them but in Christ we are spiritually invincible.
H: Interesting how you pick a soft target like UFOlogists rather than well-informed skeptics who will blow your butt off.
U: My Church believes among other things in the freedom to believe and/or worship to the dictates of ones own conscience. We also believe in the separation of church/belief system and state. I consider Atheism to be a belief that there is a Godless Universe and a system of beliefs is defined as a religion. My church has a whole department devoted to Religious Liberty; and I am the Religious Liberty Leader for the local Prince George congregation. Liberty Magazine is a publication that prominent and influential thought leaders in North America receive. That list would include Presidents, Prime Ministers, Judges and Lawyers to name just a few.
H: That's very kind of you, I'm sure - but how many of these guys actually READ it?
U: Its topics are Religious freedom, Church and State separation and other constitutional matters. The articles are written by people with varying belief systems.
I have nothing against Atheists personally; I just don’t agree with their point of view. I believe God gives everyone the freedom to choose beliefs, including the inherent consequences. I can even understand why someone would hold to that belief system.
Thank-you for allowing me to express what I currently believe. My understanding and knowledge is growing and changing with every passing moment.
H: Keep going, you may escape yet!
Hume-anist