{Roll the cheesy music. Enter Hume in spangly jacket, to rapturous applause. So rapturous, that some fundies actually take off and float upwards, concussing themselves on the lighting rig and falling back stunned into their seats}
Hume: Thank you ladies and gentlemen, thank you. And welcome to another episode of the show I just can't give up. Now just an hour or two ago, I stated that Abby hadn't said anything silly enough to warrant an episode to herself, but then Schmucko and Ade the Shade pointed me in the direction of something you've all probably seen and I hadn't. So, let's wheel on Abby!
{enter Kira, dragging the smiling figure of Abby in the golden lassoo of logic and seating her on the chair over the gunge tank.}
Hume: Now Abby - I gather that you're going to attempt the classic lame-brained pollyanna "everything is wonderful" defence of the magic man in the sky.
Abby: Giving credit to God for things doesn’t diminish the accomplishments one does. I once had the privilege of meeting one of the top heart surgeons in the world. Just before going into surgery, he prays, and his first words are always, “Lord, thank you for making it possible for me to win that medical scholarship I so badly needed.” He goes back THAT far in his gratitude. Now, he KNOWS that HE’S the one who studied hard for that scholarship, and he knows he will be the one doing the surgery. But he’s not so arrogant to think that he’s not doing God’s work.
Hume: So a Muslim, or atheist, or Jewish, Hindu surgeon is also doing the Xian God's work but is arrogant? And a bad Xian surgeon who kills patients is also doing God's work? Just where is this argument coming from? Remember what happens to anecdotal evidence in the hands of Kira!
Abby: You said, “If I spend 15 years practicing my throwing technique and manage to get on a national baseball team, should I thank this god? I never saw *him* at practice. He never gave up on social events so he could spend more time at the field. I did. He didn't have to deal with the strained muscles; I did. He didn't give me that spot on the team. The talent scout that saw me, along with everyone else on the decision making process did. Oh, and *I* did- because I put in the work.”
How would your “throwing technique” be if you had been in an accident and had your arm amputated?
Hume: Presumably, he should have said -"Thank you God, for putting me in that accident and chopping my arm off. I know I'm supposed to put my hands together in prayer, but I'm sure you'll excuse me using only one hand, O Lord."
Abby: There are professional ball players who suddenly find themselves with crippling diseases. There’s always something to be thankful to God for.
Hume: "Thank you for this crippling disease. Nice one, Lord!"
Abby: The muscle in your arm is healthy, and you had a full 15 years to practice, for example. Suppose the scout couldn’t be there that day? You never “saw” him at practice. But tell me, what did your attitude look like? What did your desire to win look like? Were those things not there, as well? Sure, you can take credit for all the hard work you put in, but Who made it possible for you to do it?
Hume: We can all see where this is going, and it's big trouble for you, Abby. You have to presuppose God as a cause for EVERYTHING that happens, good OR bad. How does that square with a benevolent god? Furthermore, how can you EVER demonstrate the existence of something you claim to be behind ANYTHING, however bad or good? I suggest you read up of the history of luminiferous aether - it should give you pause for thought.
Abby: You said, “Some theists would claim that this god gave me the talent to begin with. Really? First time I threw a baseball it landed behind me. So much for inborn talent.”
I’ve traded post on another board with a man was born with no arms (I’ve never asked him how he types).
Hume: A nice girl like you wouldn't want to know. Trust me on this...
Abby: How far would be able to throw a baseball on his first try?
Hume: I could send you the video, but I don't think a Xian girl like you would be prepared to watch it.
Abby: You are to be commended for not giving up and for continuing to practice. It’s YOU who put in the hard work, and you can take credit for that. But it’s God that made it possible, so you should give Him credit for that.
Hume: And what about people for whom things are NOT possible? What should THEY say to the lord?
Abby: You said, “More to the point in this case: Aside from some psychological/moral support...what did prayer really do? Seems to me that if she wants to thank someone and give them credit, it should be the friends who took the time to come be with her (and pray for her, since they honestly wanted to help.)”
With all due respect, that is very short sighted. We don’t KNOW to what extent the prayers helped. The fact that her religious friends came over to visit her shows immediately how God works through people. They are to be given credit for doing God’s work, and I’m sure God will reward them.
Hume: On the contrary, O blinkered one, it shows how religion is a human invention and phenomenon which works (if and when at all) through entirely material means.
Abby: You said, “Or she may want to thank all the researchers that developed the medication, and all the test subjects that help refine it and verify it's use. If she is feeling particularly animistic, she may want to thank the lab animals that the drug was first tested on. Last time I checked, no god's were known to hang around labs and help run tests. Show me where this god actualy did something, and I may thank it.”
She can thank all of those people—even the animals, if she’d like—but, as I said earlier, she can still thank God for making it all possible. And believe me, God was at the lab. You can’t see Him because He’d rather you come to him through faith.
Hume: You cannot be serious. If faith is so strong, use it to tell me what is in my pockets, O mystical one. Or look at it another way - I am accompanied everywhere by the sacred crocodile, Zorb. He only manifests Himself to people who have a sense of humour about religion. There are others on this board who can vouch for this.
{Zorb pops his head up from the gunge pit, prompting a pantomime "Look behind you" routine between the seeing atheists and the unseeing fundies}
Abby: You said, “And if she should thank this god for her mental\emotional recovery, should she not also blame it for the depression in the first place?” In some cases, yes. There are some people who will swear that God allowed them to suffer through a crisis so that they would emerge from the ordeal a stronger, better person—a person able to help other people through the same experiences.
Hume: If this is so beneficial, why don't doctors do this to people?
Abby: God loves it when you overcome an obstacle, or seemingly do the impossible,
Hume: Like believe contradictory ideas?
Abby ...because it strengthens you. Those are the kinds of people He’s like to see do His work.
Hume: And what kind of people does Zorb like to do His work?
Audience: PEOPLE COVERED IN GUNGE!!!!
{Hume pulls the lever and deposits Abby into the gunge pit}
